Talk:Justice
Died during the siege at Vigil's Keep Had max aproval (due to the bug) and finished his quest, but he still died during the siege of Vigil's Keep (i stayed to defend Amaranthine). Is that a bug, or he always dies? *Spoiler I think it is tied to whether or not you do his personal quest -- The one where he goes and talks to Kristoff's wife and she eventually gives him her blessing to use the body. *I did the Quest of his and he died in Vigil's Keep if you defend Amaranthine, Velanna too vanishes in Vigil's Keep without a trace. Maybe it is a "has to be" event if you leave them behind. I mean if you defend Vigil's Keep by yourself, you save all your crewmates, because no one dies apart of the seneschal. Vivien Gemai 18:02, March 25, 2010 (UTC) *I did play through both defending the keeping and defending Amaranthine and I'm pretty sure he lived both times. Gskurski Max Approval Bug is there anyway around this? Seems like defeating the Baroness, giving him any object will right away throw his approval to max. :( I got 100 approval (with no skills) the instant he joined my party (actually the first and only time this bug has happened to me). I used the toolset to edit his approval back down to 0 and thereafter it changed and he got skills as normal. Uecasm 01:48, April 5, 2010 (UTC) Is it just me? Or does justice look alot like Commander shepards(mass effect) defualt apperence?(sorry dont know how to make this a section)Blazeofmerc 21:01, March 29, 2010 (UTC) Lyrium Ring Bug? The page states that Going to Kal'Hirol before meeting Justice, or looting the the Infused Skeleton will result in you not being able to travel back at a later date to loot the Ring however, I definitely got the ring before I even met Justice. I had it in my party chest at the keep for ages. Is this incorrect information or just a bug that only occurs sometimes? If so, it should be labelled as such.Melisma17 14:19, April 3, 2010 (UTC) Ditto. I went to Kal'Hirol first and got the ring without any issues. PC, in case that makes a difference. Uecasm 06:53, April 4, 2010 (UTC) No, there is definitely a bug, cause I didn't find this ring at KalHirol. WRFan (talk) 10:22, July 26, 2010 (UTC) :Oops, sorry, I simply overlooked it. WRFan (talk) 10:31, July 26, 2010 (UTC) Kristoff's Origin? We know Kristoff was sent to Ferelden by the Wardens in Orlais. Is Kristoff's actual origin known? Kristoff's wife, Aura, speaks with an Orlesian accent. Couple that with the fact that we never see or hear from Kristoff at the Battle of Ostagar, is it safe to assume that Kristoff is Orlesian and came to Ferelden after the events of DA:O? Do the Grey Wardens in Orlais recruit members from Ferelden? 22:03, May 3, 2010 (UTC)TopBoost It doesn't seem as though Grey Wardens align themselves very strongly with their country of origin. Riordan, for example, is Orlesian yet (*SPOILERS*) requests the recruitment of Loghain, a Ferelden. In the DAO epilogue, it mentions that Loghain becomes a prolific recruiter himself. When encountered in DAA, he mentions that he's been assigned to a post in Orlais. It's possible that he recruits Orlesians. --Rival grace 00:54, May 8, 2010 (UTC) Really horrible English makes this "Bug" difficult to understand. I wish people who have difficulty with English would try to get some help before trying to edit something in English over the internet. The following that was put into the "Bugs" section states: :"If you equip Justice with any defensive equip(Helmet, Armor, etc), and goes kill the Baronese, the equipment will disapear. For example, if you equip him the Sentinel set, that it's on the Blackmarch, and go kill the Baronese, Justice will talk with you without it, and the equipment "disapear" (with Sentinel Set, the equipment back to the Iron chests, just the Armor stays(Obs.: The others itens of Iron chests back too)). (Tested on PC, just with Sentinel set and no new weapons)" Now I understand the part where his equipment will disappear, but the part that says, "(with Sentinel Set, the equipment back to the Iron chests, just the Armor stays(Obs.: The others itens of Iron chests back too))," kind of confuses me. Spelling and Grammar aside, the sentence is not clear enough. What does "Obs." mean? I want to guess that the equipment goes back into the Iron chests once it disappears, but I've never encountered this bug. For now I will fix the horrible spelling and some grammar, but I'm unsure of what the actual content of some of the sentences mean. Two for the price of one Slight confusion over Justice being in DA2. Doesn't Justice being in Anders body make him a returning companion as well? Should he be listed as one? - Rufusdrake :I don't think he should be listed as one, as that will confuse people that he is a different companion. --'D.' (talk ·''' ) 03:02, February 9, 2011 (UTC) Epilogue text If not recruited, A mysterious figure in Grey Warden armor is occasionally seen in the marsh, erecting gravestones to honor villagers of old. In time, those sightings cease. This isn't actually part of Justice's epilogue text, but the Blackmarsh's. I even doubt this mysterious figure is actually Justice. I had to kill him after allying myself with the Architect, but in the epilogue I still got the text mentioned above. Also it said "It's unknown if he actually died or not" or something along these lines. So there's something wrong here. Oberscht (talk) 14:48, February 19, 2011 (UTC) DA2 VA While Howden obviously voices Justice, in the form of Anders, most of the time, I'm pretty sure Leadbeater returns to voice Justice himself in the Fade. Worth noting? JakePT (talk) 10:54, March 15, 2011 (UTC) Fate Section Should Justice have a fate section or direct to Anders Fate? Xelestial (talk) 01:42, August 5, 2011 (UTC) Justice should have his own Fate section, IMO. He WAS a character in DA:A, after all. I guess we can also redirect to Anders because...well...you know. Quirkynature (talk) 02:16, August 5, 2011 (UTC) I have no idea how to currently create a section but I will figure it out if need be. Xelestial (talk) 02:31, August 5, 2011 (UTC) Picture I always see Justice depicted either through Anders or Kristoff. Would it be possible to get a nice screen of his form in the Fade as the main pic, or all 3? Xelestial (talk) 02:32, August 5, 2011 (UTC) :I think the best picture is Kristoff's, as this is how most players will recognize him as since he's mostly in this form in Awakening. Per guidelines, the infobox picture should be whichever best represents him. Justice's arguably more prominent in Awakening than Dragon Age II. --'''D. (talk ·''' ) 03:22, August 5, 2011 (UTC) I can see your point, but "best represents him" could arguably mean his truest or original form, no? It might not be his most recognizable or popular though. Xelestial (talk) 03:31, August 5, 2011 (UTC) :By "best represents him", it's meant to be whichever appearance is most recognizable. --'''D. (talk ·''' ) 03:42, August 5, 2011 (UTC) : Okay okay I give :P Still...I would like to see a picture of all 3 somewhere in there, since he does technically have 3 forms. Hope springs eternal. Xelestial (talk) 03:49, August 5, 2011 (UTC) Spirit or Demon of Vengeance? Justice in DA2 becomes Vengeance. It says to a girl saved form Otto Arlik "I am no dmeon!", but it cannot be sure itself. Rival Andy says that demons are just corrupted spirits, he turned J into V by his anger and hatred towards templars. V took control over Anders then. Some chars call him a demon or an abomination, maybe they're right. :Short answer: we don't know. And a talk page of an article is not a place for this discussion, you'd better create a new thread here: Forum:Lore_Discussion. :PS I am against writing directly in the article whether J/V turned into a demon or not, as both statements seem to be highly debatable. I think, "force of Vengeance" or simply "Vengeance" is neutral enough and will do for both sides of the argument. Asherinka (talk) 12:04, March 24, 2012 (UTC) Anders admited he made his friend a demon. Vengeance is one of thing desire demons offer, so doesn't it make this corrupted spirit a desire demon with adopted name of Vengeance? (talk) 12:08, June 21, 2013 (UTC) :When does Anders specifically call Justice/Vengeance a demon? I can't recall that happening in the game. Kelcat (talk) 17:46, June 21, 2013 (UTC) ::Last straw as rival after Hawke choosed side. Anders says then Vengeance took him over and he cannot control it. (talk) 18:09, June 21, 2013 (UTC) Is it a rage demon?FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 13:36, December 28, 2013 (UTC) :Vengeance is a spirit who became a demon. I think other spirits like Faith will become Despair and Valor become fear. Also there will be Envy and Remorse Demon. Stop redirecting from Kristoff to Justice Could somebody made a separate article about Kristoff? On Wikia is already Warden's Fall where he was a main character. Please may somebody do it. :If have enough info about him, you can write the Involvement section yourself. If you feel uncomfortable about further formatting, I can help with that. Asherinka (talk) 16:18, April 16, 2012 (UTC) : Kristoff will no longer redirect to this page. I created a starting page; feel free to change/expand it. --'''D. (talk ·''' ) 16:21, April 16, 2012 (UTC) Picture change I was wondering if we shouldn't change the picture to how Justice looked the first time we meet it - the spirit of justice. Right now we have a picture of dead Kristoff, the infobox about possesed Kristoff's body and Anders, and involvement of all three. If Justice is to return in another body in DA:I, this will make things even more complicated. I support having the picture of the spirit as the main one, as it is what it is - not the possesed body. Henio0 (talk) 12:28, September 20, 2013 (UTC) : I also think that should be that way, not because Justice is going to reappear in DAI, but because the armored ghost is its true form. I think Kristoff's body should be shown in section Involvement. (talk) 12:57, September 20, 2013 (UTC)StubbornMageSlayer To demon or not to demon That is the question. A series of edits were made to change Justice from a demon to a corrupted spirit. Wasn't there some kind of confirmation that corrupted spirits are in fact demons? I think we should get it back to Demon of Vengeance, unless someone provides a proof that it is in fact not a demon. Henio0 (talk) 22:12, April 5, 2014 (UTC) :Yeah, a corrupted spirit is definitely a demon. As far as Demon of Vengeance vs. Spirit of Vengeance for the title... I'd have to go with Demon. Whether or not merging with Anders added to the corruption, I can't see Vengeance, by definition, as being what would be classified as a benevolent spirit. --Kelcat (talk) 00:52, April 6, 2014 (UTC) : Both demons (malevolent spirits) & benevolent spirits are still spirits. Players have no consensus over whether Justice is malevolent or benevolent, and writing "spirit" is the easiest way to avoid heated discussions. From the Dalish perspective, the division doesn't even make sense. :But if you are really willing to start such a discussion, I don't think we can call Justice a malevolent spirit in Awakening. In Dragon Age 2 you can hardly call him malevolent until Act 3. By the way, Torpor calls him "a spirit" in Act 2 during the Night Terrors quest, and he would know better. As far as Act 3 is concerned, if you are Anders' friend, Justice/Vengeance ceases to exist (at least this is how I understand it), and only on the rivalry path he may be called a somewhat separate entity and a demon. Asherinka (talk) 00:56, April 6, 2014 (UTC) :: I don't think anyone's trying to label Justice as being a malevolent spirit in Awakening, this seems to be about how he should be termed in regards to DA2. At least that's what I was referring to. And I see nothing wrong with Henio0 wanting to start a discussion about this. --Kelcat (talk) 01:04, April 6, 2014 (UTC) ::: Yeah, I just checked that there are two separate descriptions for DAA and DA2, didn't pay attention. ::: Anyway, I don't think writing "benevolent spirit"/"demon" is any different from writing "good person"/"bad person" in the description of i.e. a human character. I would avoid such labels and simply write "spirit". Same goes for Cole, by the way. Whatever decision is made here, his article should be adjusted accordingly. Asherinka (talk) 01:09, April 6, 2014 (UTC) : Demons seek to control their mages like puppets all the time, not just sometimes. The mage being an abomination are subservient to the demons will. Whether we think something like Vengeance is good or bad should be irrelevant. Vengeance doesn't control Anders; Anders as far I know still has free will; most of the time. It's only when he goes against the spirit of justice, i.e. giving into Sloth and ignoring the injustice of the world that he steps in. So I believe Vengeance/Justice to still be a spirit. If it were a demon, he would control Anders 24/7.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 02:14, April 6, 2014 (UTC)) ::Connor was possessed as well willingly, so he didn't change shape and he didn't speak whole time by demon voice, it is because he was struggling or because the demon allowed him to be free for some time to tease Isolde. I think Friend Anders and Vengeance have same mind, so they merge into one person, when Anders is a rival his mind is completelly different from Vengeance, they don't share same mind, so they can't be one. Rival Anders claimed he has blanks in memories and doesn't remember what he did, when Vengeance was trying to take over him.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 05:43, April 6, 2014 (UTC) :::Demons seek to completely dominate the mind. Vengeance seems to do it only to achieve an aim or purpose. I believe only spirits do the latter. It's one thing to be a thrall to a demon, but what Rival Anders was doing was fighting the nature of Justice which would no doubt cause it "spiritual pain" and force it to take matters into its own hands. There should be a distinction between possession for the likes that Uldred experienced and those for the likes of Anders and Wynne. Uldred expressed no remorse, no signs of humanity. Anders still did. He was allowed to reflect on all his actions, from killing Ella (or possibly) to destroying the Kirkwall Chantry. Which means he had thoughts, feelings, and a will of his own. He wasn't being dominated. And we know this because he showed remorse for those he sacrificed in the Last Straw and allowed himself to be caught, even allowed himself to be executed. Demons do not show remorse. In Enemies Among Us, Anders says that demons would defend themselves if their host was attacked. Anders allowed himself to be executed. That's what separates demons and spirits and why Justice, whether good or bad, is still just a spirit.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 06:07, April 6, 2014 (UTC)) ::::The demons we know seek to dominate minds. What if there are demons who don't take over the host but enjoy feeding on their emotions whilst hiding? There are plenty other feelings and sins demons could be based on. Perhaps we'll get some new lore in Inquisition. Henio0 (talk) 09:49, April 6, 2014 (UTC) :::::If that were true then why wouldn't Vengence have fought to keep Anders alive as isn't he his primary food source? If Justice is a demon, he goes back to the Fade with his primary addiction taken away from him. Isn't the natural state of demons "one of longing for the world of flesh and blood."? He wouldn't let Anders, his source of nourishment, commit atonement suicide because how else is he going to feed off his anger if he goes back to the Fade?(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 10:17, April 6, 2014 (UTC)) ::::::Again, he is a demon unlike any other we've seen before. He may not be so clingy as the others are, or maybe it can just swap bodies at will, as it did leave Kristoff's body. Henio0 (talk) 10:29, April 6, 2014 (UTC) ::::::::Well we don't know if he can swap bodies or if Anders had a hand in it as he is a sprit healer. Demons have always been defined as being selfish and despotic. If demons don't have to be that well, how do we know it's a demon at all aside from inferences from his profile as you've mentioned? My two cents is it may just be colorful wording imo and perhaps should not be taken at face value.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 10:39, April 6, 2014 (UTC)) :::::::::Of course, I was just speculating. ;) It has become quite confusing since they decided to add to the lore that all spirits are the same, but whether they're "bad" or "good depends on the feeling they feed on. I wouldn't be surprised if "regular" spirits turned out to be demons as well, but just not "bad" ones. However, as it stands now, the game does make it a point to differanciate between spirits that don't go out of their way to posses people, and those that do. Henio0 (talk) 10:42, April 6, 2014 (UTC) Vengeance is a spirit who became a demon. I think other spirits like Faith will become Despair and Valor become fear. Also there will be Envy and Remorse Demon. :Actually corrupted spirt of faith is a pride demon. Just check page of the faith spirit. Corrupted Hope is more a Dispair.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 09:52, April 6, 2014 (UTC) ::There's no such thing as spirit of Hope. Pride is not the opposite of Faith its Despair. (talk) 10:33, April 6, 2014 (UTC) :::There is a spirit of hope, we've just not seen it yet. And it was confirmed if Wynne's spirit was corrupted, it could become pride demon. Funnily enough, she was overfilled with pride when she was young, and maybe that attracted the spirit to her. Henio0 (talk) 10:38, April 6, 2014 (UTC) ::::So as the spirits of chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience, kindness, and humility that is the opposites of the demons. (talk) 10:47, April 6, 2014 (UTC) Anders's profile states "his anger at the Circle warped Justice into the demonic spirit of Vengeance.". Isn't a demonic spirit actually a demon? Henio0 (talk) 09:49, April 6, 2014 (UTC) :It evens says: "Now Anders must struggle mentally and physically to maintain his control over '''the demon within... ".Henio0 (talk) 09:51, April 6, 2014 (UTC) 1. What Sports72Xtrm said. +1) A demon would not allow to destroy itself so willingly. 2. I'll just repeat myself and state that simply writing "spirit" without clarifying whether he is benevolent or malevolent is the easiest way to avoid heated discussions. There is no such race as "demon". "Demons" are a subclass of "spirits". While in case of creatures (that are simple by default) we can easily draw the line, it is not so easy to do in case of characters (i.e. Justice, Cole). I would even stay that the very purpose of these characters was to demonstrate that the line is blurry. I propose that any character of that type should be described simply as a "spirit" without any adjectives. Not to mention that writing something like "he turned into a demon" in the info-box (be it true or not) is a major spoiler. PS What would you do with Cole? He is a murderer of innocents who saved a friend, felt remorse and burst into tears. Is he a "benevolent spirit" or a "demon"?) Asherinka (talk) 15:44, April 6, 2014 (UTC) :Since the matter is sensitive and we're unlikely to get any official answer, I am fine with putting him down as spirit for both games. As per Cole, I am not your man as I've not read the book and I don't know the situation personally. :) Henio0 (talk) 15:58, April 6, 2014 (UTC) : I have no idea why you think this is a "heated" discussion as everyone has been perfectly rational and polite, but I'm fine with it being "spirit" without the benevolent or corrupted additions. Issues with Cole's page should be brought up there, not here. --Kelcat (talk) 01:24, April 7, 2014 (UTC) It's a plot hole that the one inside Anders didn't defend itself after all. Demon or not, why would it allow it's host to be killed? Demon or not, it should have desire to live.FirstDrellSpectre (talk) 17:20, April 13, 2014 (UTC)